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View Full Version : What makes a Durable LSP?


Ross
14-08-2009, 10:44 AM
I have been thinking what makes a Durable LSP?I know a lot of its down to the curing of the product but how do you make a durable wax/sealant?Durable LSP's in mind are Colly 476,FK 1000P,Megs #16,Zaino Z2 and Z5 ect.

VIPER
14-08-2009, 10:48 AM
I would say there are 2 distinct elements; the actual quality of the ingredients being the obvious one, but also the ease of how it bonds to the car (and to other chemical products that are likely to be on it).

I'm sure some of our manufacturers can shed some light on this (in general terms of course - they're not going to give their secrets away)

Dodo Factory
14-08-2009, 11:16 AM
It's complicated ;)

Ross
14-08-2009, 11:17 AM
It's complicated ;)

Sure is seems to be so many factors:lol:

Dodo Factory
14-08-2009, 11:27 AM
Yup, as Viper says it's basically down to ingredients and bonding, ie the application/curing process.

If the new coating has harder materials in than the clearcoat, it will offer better protection. If the materials absorb UV light, they will protect the clearcoat from UV damage. If they are a sacrificial layer, they could protect against dirt, bird lime etc. If it has bonded permanently, ie like paint, then it will be more durable than if it is a water-based solution.

But durability as you're thinking about it really comes down to resistance to UV light, more than anything. How rapidly the sun breaks down the molecular structure of the product. This depends on a large number of factors, and no product is simple. You can't define durability from just a cursory glance at the ingredients no more than you can say that a cake in a shop tastes delicious just because you know it has flour, eggs and sugar in.

And why do cakes taste so nice... the eggs? The flour? Maybe. But more likely the butter and sugar. And then the cooking so it's a bit crunchy on the top. But what proportion butter, sugar and cooking do you need? This is the problem with a wax... so many factors, so much variation. Everything is in balance. Not only is optimising durability an art, but as durability can go up, ease of use can go down.

Ross
14-08-2009, 11:28 AM
Cheers Dom.

Epoch
14-08-2009, 11:30 AM
Damm and I was going to say correct application :)

HalfordsShopper
14-08-2009, 12:24 PM
haha - i think dom is a closet baker. I always wondered why all his waxes sounded like cakes. I can just imagine him prancing round his kitchen at home making cakes and thinking up funny new names for them.

lol - sorry no offence meant of anything dom - i'm just being a knob as usual. :-)

Dodo Factory
14-08-2009, 12:46 PM
It's a closer analogy than you may imagine! :D

When I started making the home made waxes, it was a bit like being Mr Kipling. Playing around with ingredients etc is all part and parcel of it.

Bigpikle
14-08-2009, 01:40 PM
Is UV really the biggest reason for LSPs degrading? I would have thought washing, rain, dirt, salt etc played a big role in erosion?

I'm also with Jon on the application issue. Last autumn applying waxes in perfect humidity and temp controlled environ of his garage lead to outstanding durability from a single layer of product. Really surprised me as I didn't expect those products o do as well as they did...

millns84
14-08-2009, 01:42 PM
It's a closer analogy than you may imagine! :D

When I started making the home made waxes, it was a bit like being Mr Kipling. Playing around with ingredients etc is all part and parcel of it.

That explains the exceedingly good waxes then! :D

Ross
14-08-2009, 01:43 PM
It's a closer analogy than you may imagine! :D

When I started making the home made waxes, it was a bit like being Mr Kipling. Playing around with ingredients etc is all part and parcel of it.

"Mr Dodo Makes Exceedingly good Waxes":lol:

Dodo Factory
14-08-2009, 03:02 PM
LOL... that has to be our new strapline, doesn't it ;) :lol:

Dodo Factory
14-08-2009, 03:05 PM
Is UV really the biggest reason for LSPs degrading? I would have thought washing, rain, dirt, salt etc played a big role in erosion?

I'm also with Jon on the application issue. Last autumn applying waxes in perfect humidity and temp controlled environ of his garage lead to outstanding durability from a single layer of product. Really surprised me as I didn't expect those products o do as well as they did...

All play their part. Acid rain, wind abrasion, road salt, rain erosion, dirt abrasion, washing abrasion... but in my estimation, UV damage is the biggest killer of coatings as it totally breaks them down. Think of the radiation the sun gives off on a hot summer's day... enough to cook eggs on the bonnet and give you sunstroke. It plays havoc with coatings.

Bigpikle
14-08-2009, 03:38 PM
Makes sense. So does it make any sense to suggest products might last longer on lighter coloured cars where paint absorbs less UV?

Dodo Factory
14-08-2009, 04:35 PM
I like the theory, but the UV light has already penetrated the wax to reflect off the white base coat. The white base coat will be less damaged by UV, but I imagine the wax gets a similar degree of degredation. The panel may be cooler, so it may help. There must be some effect, though, otherwise clearcoat on red or black cars wouldn't get so milky... it's not damaged base coat we see, it's top coat.

There is a lack of scientific research in the area; it would be good to find out or have some proper tests done really. But rain, dirt, wind etc all attack coatings less than detergents/solvents and UV light. Detergents and solvents can be kept away from the coating, but it's difficult to avoid UV - even at night time there's a certain amount of UV radiation coming from the sun (IIRC!). It degrades very stable and permanent 'sealants' such as clearcoats, so these lighter temporary coatings are very much susceptible to degradation.

Ross
14-08-2009, 06:55 PM
LOL... that has to be our new strapline, doesn't it ;) :lol:

Do I win a prize:D :lol:

Dodo Factory
14-08-2009, 08:08 PM
Do I win a prize:D :lol:

No, but millns84 might have as he got there first :thumb:

Ross
14-08-2009, 08:10 PM
Runner up prize:D

s2kpaul
14-08-2009, 08:32 PM
Do waxes have UV barriers or not then ?

Mesa
14-08-2009, 10:10 PM
Wouldn't a light car be worse as they reflect the UV meaning the wax gets two doses as it passes through and then back out again?

Also do manufacturers work primarily on making them "UV friendly"...should be a selling point more than "detergent proof" etc.

Auto Finesse
14-08-2009, 10:24 PM
^^ at what point do you stop with detergent resistant, some cheap car wash products are caustic based and there's not much going to stand in the way of that.

All wax/lsp MFRs will have there own shampoo that would have been developed to work with there coating.

millns84
14-08-2009, 10:47 PM
No, but millns84 might have as he got there first :thumb:

Oooh! What do I get?! :D :lol:

Nosbusa
15-08-2009, 08:34 AM
Do waxes have UV barriers or not then ?

From another site.. Not sure if link is allowed or not..

Some waxes do contain UV-protection agents, but the amount of protection that a microscopically thin layer of wax can provide is limited.

The primary goal of a wax is to protect the top layers of paint that contain UV-protection agents from the paint manufacture. If you wash and wax your car regularly, your paint will be protected and you should suffer no major UV damage over the normal course of the life of the car.

Don't be fooled by some companies that lead you to believe that it is the UV protection in a wax that protects your car's finish from fading and failure, this is dishonest and simply not true. Taking care of the paint you presently have will go further to protect your finish than relying on protection supplied by a liquid you pour out of a bottle, or a wax you scoop out of a can. UV protection in a car wax formula is only an extra-dose of preventative maintenance, not the end-all, cure-all that some companies would lead you to believe.

UV protection for paint is much different from UV blocking ingredients for human skin. The two formulas are nothing alike and work in drastically different ways. There is no correlation between the ratings applied to the different levels of sun blocking protection for products intended for use on human skin and the ingredients available for use in an automotive wax formula. Sad to say, much of what you see advertised about the protective qualities of most car care products on the market today is simply over-exaggerated hype used to separate you from your hard earned dollars.

Dodo Factory
15-08-2009, 12:22 PM
What is said above isn't entirely true... but the amount of UV protection provided by an LSP is limited due to it being relatively thin. Sealants and waxes have natural levels of UV protection... Carnauba wax itself is intrinsically UV resistant in that it is designed to protect the rainforest palm's leaves from UV damage. Likewise, most coatings, whether synthetic or natural offer some form of barrier which can dissipate or limit the effect of UV light on the surface beneath.

However, they rarely contain the same type of anti-UV ingredients as suncreams. The slightly cynical diatribe above hints at the difference between the two without explaining it, so I will. Suncreams contain UV blockers or reflectors, like titanium dioxide, which are small particles that act as a physical barrier to UV penetration. Titanium dioxide is also used as pigment in white paint, hence why suncream tends to be white.

Car care products with *specific* anti-UV properties tend to contain products that absorb UV light rather than block or reflect it, ie soak up the UV light so it can't do as much damage to what lies beneath. If ever you have left a coloured candle (made from wax of course) on a window sill and seen its colour bleach, it is because the UV light has affected the pigment. UV absorbers help candles keep their colour.

So in short, LSPs do have *some* but limited inherent UV protection, and some products like 303, designed to protect rubber, vinyl, plastic etc from UV damage, will have a specific strength in this department. Covering your clearcoat in anything is better than leaving it dry to weather UV damage on its own. It is a temporary dose of 'preventative maintenance' as has been mentioned above, using the wax really as a sacrificial layer to take the brunt of the sun damage.

However, it is easy to miss the point...

People think UV and waxes are important for reasons of protecting the paint or clearcoat underneath. Wrong. UV is important because it BREAKS DOWN WAXES AND SEALANTS. So you could have a substance that doesn't reflect, absorb or stop UV light attacking underlying layers but is STABLE and doesn't degrade by it... maybe a substance like glass. So there is a slight difference. Wax manufacturers look at whether the bonds are being broken down internally within waxes and sealants...worrying about the UV effect on the wax is slightly different from worrying about the UV effect on the paint underneath.

When sealants and waxes are created, of course, making the product as stable as possible vs UV damage will also indicate a certain resistance to UV anyway. And it is true that modern clearcoats are quite good at protecting againts UV damage, so it would be wrong for a car care manufacturer to overclaim or scaremonger in this area. It tends to be red cars of a certain quality and vintage that really struggle with UV damage and for the rest of the cars out there, it's less critical for the paint - but still critical for the durability and longevity of the wax employed.