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Old 16-10-2018, 12:03 AM   #1
bidderman1969
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hydrogen cars

is this something big in development at the moment? on the quiet like?

reason i ask is that having just read a bit about someones experiences with an electric car, jogged my memory, when doing a pick up at Gatwick North terminal, i dropped in at the shell garage where i saw a very large new container for, what looked like, hydrogen (it was a bit dark and i was in a hurry )

i do hope so
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Old 16-10-2018, 07:50 AM   #2
NeilG40
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Toyota are desperately clinging on in the typical Japanese style of not wanting to loose face give how much money they've sunken into them, but they really don't make any sense for passenger vehicles. They're too complex, too inefficient compared to a pure electric vehicle and no cheaper to run than petrol, and then there's all the precautions that are needed when working on them.
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Old 16-10-2018, 08:49 AM   #3
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There are a whole load of technical issues to deploy hydrogen infrastructure (energy to cool/compress the gas at curling stations etc) let alone costs of production.

And it’s inefficient too - it uses around 3 x as much electricity compared to simply using an electric car with batteries, and with larger battery capacities in cars like the Hyundai Kona and Kia Niro there is not much difference in range. Factor in the high servicing costs (and need to replace the fuel tank/ancillaries after 10 years on current vehicles) and cost of ownership will be very high.

So not so many compelling arguments for use in cars/light vans.
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Old 16-10-2018, 08:50 AM   #4
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Those thinking of buying electric cars might want to read this.
https://www.parkers.co.uk/car-advice...638cd08937786d

Andy
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Old 16-10-2018, 09:34 AM   #5
DLGWRX02
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Those thinking of buying electric cars might want to read this.
https://www.parkers.co.uk/car-advice...638cd08937786d

Andy
Glad i got mine in early. Was also lucky enough to have the full cost of charger and install funded from Olev and Nissan. Albeit apart from £75 i had to pay for additional cabling and isolater.
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Old 16-10-2018, 09:52 AM   #6
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Hydrogen would be the best option as obviously it's everywhere and can be extracted from sea water and using it as fuel produces water, but @asshl-kelso already mentioned currently very expensive to extract and store with the current technology, also I think most people would worry about driving around with a car full of hydrogen :-), but lithium batteries are dangerous too, we should be developing Hydrogen fuel cells alongside batteries for Hybrids,
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Old 16-10-2018, 09:54 PM   #7
ollienoclue
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Anyone who knows anything about hydrogen knows it is an absolute pain in the derriere.

Just because the stuff is virtually sloshing around in sea water does not make it free, not by a long shot. Do the sums on obtaining it, compressing it and finally meddling with it, and it becomes very questionable compared to plain battery power. It isn't a source of energy as such, either.

And, do you really want to be riding in a vehicle carrying a load of hydrogen? We know how well that went down last time.

As far as I can see, it will be batteries for lighter vehicles and some kind of liquid fuel for heavier vehicles where the increased energy density is required. Either some biofuel or something like ammonia or maybe something novel using high process heat. Either way, nuclear power will be a big feature.
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Old 17-10-2018, 11:37 AM   #8
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you just seem to keep repeating what's already been said,

all the major car manufacturers are pursuing fuel cells as well as general industry, the tech will improve as it always does,

hydrogen won't run out and it can be produced from sea water plants powered by other clean sources fully eventually,

lithium will only last about 300-350 year at the current rate, that will drop very quickly as rate of manufacture increases down to a few years, there is probably plenty in the earth but that will need lots more exploration and mines with lots of pollution and cost, but thats just considering what car batteries will use not including the requirement for fusion reactors,

or we try and get lithium from seawater too,
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Old 17-10-2018, 06:30 PM   #9
Andy from Sandy
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The cynic in me thinks that any time a government offers a subsidy the product goes up by the same amount but if a product really is any good then it shouldn't need subsidising by the tax payer but by the manufacturer.

In terms of cost to get the product refining diesel then petrol are the cheapest.

Some years ago someone suggested to me that to get hydrogen using the electrolysis of water takes about the same amount of energy as the energy the hydrogen will produce. I don't think it is carbon neutral.
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Old 17-10-2018, 07:55 PM   #10
ollienoclue
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mar00 View Post
you just seem to keep repeating what's already been said,

all the major car manufacturers are pursuing fuel cells as well as general industry, the tech will improve as it always does,

hydrogen won't run out and it can be produced from sea water plants powered by other clean sources fully eventually,

lithium will only last about 300-350 year at the current rate, that will drop very quickly as rate of manufacture increases down to a few years, there is probably plenty in the earth but that will need lots more exploration and mines with lots of pollution and cost, but thats just considering what car batteries will use not including the requirement for fusion reactors,

or we try and get lithium from seawater too,
I admire your optimism, but how can the lithium 'run out'; its a very readily recycled material? When batteries containing lithium die, they can be fully recycled.

What kind of sea water plants will produce hydrogen effectively? If you had access to lots of high temperature process heat, you can produce it using the sulphur-iodine cycle but that means getting heat from somewhere. Even so, hydrogen itself is not a source of energy, either.

Fusion- all sounds great in theory but might never happen on a practical scale. Fission meanwhile, heck there is all the fuel you could ever possibly need for thousands of years dissolved in sea water and that is without discussing the use of plutonium or thorium as a fuel.
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