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Old 03-05-2012, 12:59 PM   #111
moosh
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Originally Posted by macmaw View Post
I would agree with that, the "best" bodyshops up my way are also famously expensive - so they probably take the extra time & time is money
Most bodyshops run on bonus schemes and rely on clients not being to bothered about thier paint finish. If they knock out 10 cars that have been poorly polished and only get one come back then bonus wise they are quids in. Sad but true thats the reason i left the trade i was customer focused and not pocket focused, i didnt mind not making bonus as the cars were going out better than factory but i was scunnered with the people i was working with so i got out of it. The insurance companies are to blame as they wont pay the rates to repair things properly.

For example a new wing and bumper is required, the panel beater will get 1.5 hrs to do the job and the painter will get say 3.5. This time is supposed to cover removal of the old parts, strip the door for a blend and then once it is painted re build it. In some bodyshops it would take you 1.5 to find the keys to the car and get it in the workshop to begin work. So to make it work better for the panel beater they will share hours so they have 2.5hrs each, this wouldnt cover either of them so the point i am getting at if these guys are dammed before they even start its hard to spend any time on the finishing touches which is a shame for the trade.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:12 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by wee_green_mini View Post
Ok. Thanks. I had no idea about another thread. You can see how I took exception to it?

The thread has been good, totally agree, it's been excellent reading back through it.

You certainly have opened eyes with the depth calculation and also pointing out the missing info (or amount of positive spin maybe) on the PTG sites.

A wee question - not to you moosh, to folk who use a paint detective PTG - do you feel now like we have all bought a thing which isn't all it's cracked up to be with regard to calculating lacquer depth?

I suppose my main question to you is this; you said you don't use a PTG, but your years of experience in the trade have given you the skills to do the machine polishing you do and that you've not come a cropper, as it were, so what is it that you're looking at then when you're machining a car - Is there some tell-tale sign you're seeing that is giving you an idea of the amount of clear-coat you have to play with?
Thats the thing mate until getting involved in the detailing world and various forums its never been something that concerns be, and i know people are going to rare up at that comment but its not something thats ever been a concern, when we were at college we had shells that we painted and polished and were shown how to polish through the clear and how to use a machine etc similar to how the Pro guys who do lessons do. We were never shown or given a PTG and i am sure they were about when i was at college.

When i do an inspection of a painted surface, i do the visual now that takes a long time. On RDS's i will make a mental note of these but not do any work on them. I then begin polishing and what and where i look is mostly behind the polisher to see how the refining is coming along and return to areas which require it but i dont concentrate at this stage on RDS. I machine the entire car to remove all defects bar RDS's, whilst machining i will polish then finish each panel then move to the next.

Next stage that i do is wash the whole car again to remove and dust and excess residue that may have been missed, i then dry with a new towel and using a compressor removing the trapped waters. I also dry door checks and grills so that the car is almost ready for lsp.

I then return and inspect the car again going round it and marking with a small piece of blue masking the RDS and then take it from there. Because each and ever RDS is different it would be hard to explain how i would tackle them but again will be exactly how a pro does it in a round about fashion as were all different.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:39 PM   #113
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So you polish anyway as long as you're sure there's clear there with no previous damage?

If there's clear there and undamaged, that's you good to go?
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:57 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by wee_green_mini View Post
Ok.

A wee question - not to you moosh, to folk who use a paint detective PTG - do you feel now like we have all bought a thing which isn't all it's cracked up to be with regard to calculating lacquer depth?
I don't personally, as I know it's only really good as a guide for removal rates, unlike the Positector, which can measure clear coat alone.

But also, when you start on your car for the first time, the paint detective or any other similar device can still give you over all readings as a base line - albeit these are all in one readings - but you can still gauge a rough idea if your paint is original or not.
As moosh says, if a panel has been painted for example, & it's unsually thick readings, we cannot assume there is plenty clear coat on that panel because of that & because we cannot measure clear coat with our standard PTGs, again that's where pro tools like the Positector come in, & I apologise to moosh if he feels a bit picked on here, as a few of the posts have gone off on a tangent. But I still don't know how he can gauge it without one!
I'm afraid that for us non pros, that's all we can go by.
It still gives me the peace of mind to know how much I am removing, it's also a good learning aid for trying out different combinations to try & get maximum correction with minimal removal.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:38 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wee_green_mini View Post
A wee question - not to you moosh, to folk who use a paint detective PTG - do you feel now like we have all bought a thing which isn't all it's cracked up to be with regard to calculating lacquer depth?
Anyone who does a quick check will find that a PTG/PDG (thickness/Depth who cares) such as the PD8 does not tell you specifically how much clear you have...

A question I asked which I don't think had been answered was directed at those who said something along the lines of "I've done machining without a PTG and never had a problem". My question was 'how do you know?' i.e. how do you know you've never had a problem? *How do you know you didn't rip through an uneccessary amount of clear? *How do you know what your removal rate is?

For me machine correction is the art of removing paint defects with the absolute minimum clear removal. For example some of the best results by the best pros on here aren't 'perfect'. Some clearly state "we couldn't remove this defect without risking permenant damage to the paint system and without a respray". For me this is especially important when working on rare/classic cars where respray world ruin the 'original'.

Removing defects without worrying about how much clearcoat you are removing is butchery.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:42 PM   #116
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^^ anyone can polish a car into a bawhair of life left.... doesn't mean it's right or they have done the correct thing...

I agree... it's an art to get the right finish with the least removal...

Are PDG full proof, no, I don't think they ever will be, do they help me, factual or placebo, yes... so I'll keep using them, and keep trying to learn about paints etc etc as well

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Old 03-05-2012, 05:29 PM   #117
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I love a have a go hero I agree bodyshops are not so great on finishing hence why I left the trade full time 8 years ago and retrained at university so now I'm an engineer and a keen detailer with the best of both worlds.

I have the training in paint with the qualification to go with it and thankfully for DW many many nice guys sharing tips I have learnt a lot.

Sadly I got bored reading the rest of your post because I remember the last time we crossed path you were an aresol then as well.

Have a go hero as the saying goes,attack is the best form of defence.Several times in this thread you have responded to members questions, with questions of your own,no answers.Was it boredom,or lack of knowledge that prevented you from reading my post fully.I recall the last time in your view ''we crossed path'',you didn't have any answers then either.All i did was ask several questions,which i thought would be valid to this thread,so does that make me an aresol? or does it make me an aresol if i ask questions that you are unable to answer? your comments have taken the OP thread off topic,but i don't think you care about that.I'll tell you one thing though,you don't know me,and i don't know you,but you will not see me resort to name calling when i have nothing to say.
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:06 PM   #118
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He's been reading the thread all through and thanking people and decided when the thread was improving to have a go, he also did this on another thread i was trying to help on hence i was rude. I was bored to be honest as i am sure you have said you were fed up of replying, All i kept asking was how do you measure your clear, i.e the depths of materials that make up the over all depth of the painted surface.

I feel i had answered all valid questions with maybe an explaination rather than an answer but the big question that kept coming back was - How do i measure clear? I dont experience tells me. I asked how do you guys with PTG's do it? - You cant specifically. BUT the PTG is handy to measure removal rates and i agree. It was mentioned it was found handy in spotting a previous repair and blend on a panel - thats what is is designed to do which i stated early on. I never cut that much from the clear and as i have said RDS are polished with caution and i would advise they be painted rather than removing depth of the clear as that is dangerous regardless if you have a PTG or not. I polish out swirls and minor scratches, i asked how deep are these and no one could answer that not even me but i can say they are not very deep and i am sure you will agree.

I think the thread has been good thus far and you say i may have opened a few eyes and i have also had my eyes open, I didnt mind being challenged when it was valid but there were many trying for the sake of it imo.

What do you personally feel i havent answered?


Where in this thread have i ''had a go'' is your definition of ''having a go'' at you,someone who asks valid questions that you are unable to answer? as for thanking people in this thread,yes i have thanked people in this thread when i have considered their contribution to be valuable,that's what the thanks button is their for i really don't know what you are on about.

''He did this on another thread'' did what? expressed an opinion,disagreed with you,yes,so you don't like that,well it's called freedom of speech,are these your reasons for being rude and calling me an ''aersol''? i'll wait and see if you become bored again during this thread,possibly when you are unable to provide answers to questions again.I was not even going to bother commenting,but seeing as you have called me an ''aersol'' and tried to suggest that i have ''had a go'' at you,i felt i had no choice.No doubt you will have to have the last word,after all you have turned this thread into being about you and your opinions,i will not reply again,your ego however,will dictate that you do.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:32 AM   #119
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This is a great thread and will surprise you maybe, I use the same techniques as I would expect as Kelly is obviously bodyshop trained in painting as well.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/foru...d.php?t=244507
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