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The Motoring Zone Just bought a car? Need advice on a car? Want to chat about cars generally? Here is the place to do it.

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Old 09-02-2018, 07:12 PM   #11
RedUntilDead
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Is it really worth a 600 mile round trip including your time. And presuming only one journey will be required.
Without being rude, is that car that good or rare to consider this deal?

I have done it myself a few times but looking back, the cars have never been worth the lost time, for me anyway.
I tried my hand at dealing but I quickly learnt that I just don’t like people as most are f..kwits
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Old 10-02-2018, 07:19 AM   #12
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You buy it then in a months time your posting a thread with the title "530I engine problems, garage won't help", personally I would not go near it with a barge pole, the lack of any real service history, the leaking engine which is only a rocker gasket leaking!? , then there's the 600 mile round trip which will soon eat into you £1000 saving, never mind having to get it back to them when the inevitable does happen.
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Old 10-02-2018, 08:25 AM   #13
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As soon as I see a dealer selling a car as a trade sale alarm bells ring.

All their cars have to be sourced as trade ins, auctions or buying from unknown people. Other than having the cars properly inspected they've no way of knowing if the car is a good one or not.

When they start deeming cars as trade sales it makes me think they know it's substandard and just want to avoid any dispute when it goes wrong.
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Old 10-02-2018, 08:42 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerr View Post
As soon as I see a dealer selling a car as a trade sale alarm bells ring.



All their cars have to be sourced as trade ins, auctions or buying from unknown people. Other than having the cars properly inspected they've no way of knowing if the car is a good one or not.



When they start deeming cars as trade sales it makes me think they know it's substandard and just want to avoid any dispute when it goes wrong.


I didn’t think them marking them up as ‘trade sale’ effected your statutory rights.

Sure I read that somewhere.


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Old 10-02-2018, 09:11 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by LeeH View Post
I didn’t think them marking them up as ‘trade sale’ effected your statutory rights.

Sure I read that somewhere.


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I don't believe it does. The goods still need to be fit for purpose and as described. Trade sale appears to be an excuse for something not being up to scratch and the seller thinking they have no responsibility.

Trade sales should be that and not dealers selling to the public.
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Old 10-02-2018, 09:19 AM   #16
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Depends how good you are with the spanners?

There will be a reason it's a trade sale and doubt it's the car history!
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Old 10-02-2018, 09:33 AM   #17
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Probably bought at auction, as will be most of his cars. That's not say there's anything wrong with it.

I had an e39 manual and it was one of the best cars I've ever owned, and is generally accepted to be one of the best cars BMW have ever produced. Check for rust, along the sills but the engine os excellent, I took my 528iSE to 145k miles+ before changing it for a 530i e60.

The weeping cam cover gasket is common enough, I've had to replace mine on the e60 which is basically the same engine.
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Old 10-02-2018, 10:43 AM   #18
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If there is any doubt, then there is no doubt. Been through this recently and if the dealer is willing to play ball then the law gives you some solid protection. If they don’t then they can make it very difficult and despite the fact that the law is relatively plain and simple, enforcing it can cost you time and money.

Saying it’s a ‘trade sale’ means nothing, it is not a legal term with specific conditions attached and it does not absolve the seller of their legal responsibilities. The Sale of Goods Act was updated in 2015 to the Consumer Rights Act, basically anything that is sold by a business has to be of reasonable quality, fit for purpose and as described, whether it’s a toaster or a car. The important bit is that the definitions of those criteria are slightly different to what one would assume from the old days.

As described is fairly self explanatory, however, when it comes to proof, any description needs to be in writing, a verbal description over the phone for example means nothing. If you ring the guy and he says ‘yeah it’s got a full history’ then you rock up and find that it’s got a couple of receipts from Tesco for 1l of oil then tough. Get conversations stating specifics confirmed in writing, email is fine.

Fit for Purpose no longer specifically means it has to work properly (which is covered by ‘as described’), it refers more to your intended use of the product, eg if you bought a car that you wanted to tow a caravan with but then found that it wasn’t capable, that would be unfit for purpose. The rub is that again, you need to be able to prove, in writing, that you made your intended purpose clear to the seller and that they advised that the product was fit for such purpose.

The big one of course is ‘of reasonable quality’. This means what it says, that the product has to be capable of doing its job safely and reliably. When it comes to things like used cars, it takes into account things like age and mileage etc, but it should still be roadworthy and reliable (if it was described as such) and free from any major defects. Of course there is still a lot of grey area there, but if the gearbox gives up two months down the line, you probably have a case, if the windscreen wipers need replacing after a year, not so much.

The Act does actually cover you for up to six years, however after certain periods of time, that cover does become harder to implement. Within the first 30 days, any breach of the conditions of the Act entitles you to reject the car and receive a full refund, including the value of any trade in you made. So if you find that the car is substantially not as described or you discover a major problem, you are covered. Less serious issues that can be easily rectified have to be negotiated with the seller, something like an oil leak for example might not be a problem now but could lead to trouble down the road, you would have to come to a mutual agreement on, forcing the issue might mean obtaining proof that the issue was potentially serious enough to be considered unreasonable. Again, if the dealer disagrees they can make it difficult and stretch it out, but the time limit does not include any period that they have had the car back for repair, so if you report a fault after say 28 days, then they take 3 days to fix it, putting it over the 30 day limit, but fail to rectify it it, you are still covered.

Between 30 days and 6 months you are still entitled to a refund under the same conditions, however the seller is permitted to make a deduction for wear and tear, mileage etc.

After 6 months you are still covered, but the onus is then on you to prove that the fault was present at the time of sale, which obviously become increasingly difficult as time goes on.

So in general, the law is on your side and it will protect you from any major catastrophes, but implementing it with an uncooperative seller can be time consuming and very stressful. My own case was fairly straightforward and with a local dealer, but because they contested my claims, it still took two months to fully resolve. I got my money back and walked away, but I was without a car for a period of time and eventually had to involve a third party to get it sorted. Hope this helps. M.
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:17 PM   #19
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Thought I best update this thread and be truthful about it, even if you all do tell me that you told me so! embarrassed to even write this up but if it helps anybody else then I don't mind being painted as a fool.

I called the dealer and asked more questions, one that particularly later would **** me off is I asked him, are there any paintwork problems on the car, has it had any paint and are there any dings or dents anywhere. His response was "The cars paint is OK and there aren't any dents that we know of, could potentially be a trolley ding or something, it is 17 years old after all, it's just cheap because no service history"

I also asked him how refundable the £100 deposit was. He told me that if the car was just not what I thought it was going to be, they'd refund. ( I paid the £100 to show I was serious about the car and not a time waster and I paid it on Credit Card.. take note of that for later in the story).

Off we set on Saturday morning, my only lift could only get to me for about 10am. We arrive at the dealer at 4ish due to traffic and very very poor weather conditions, (another poor decision, needed to get their earlier).

Went in, was told the car was over at their lock up, which on their site tells you to ring in advance to make sure a car isn't there to avoid disappointment, a tactic they obviously use to hype up their cars when you ring them because...it's over the road, literally directly opposite the main forecourt.

So I go over the road, it's sat behind a locked gate running. This immediately upset me as I wanted to hear it start from cold for the chain and vanos issues. Stood there and waited for him to come over and I could see the nearside didn't look right. He opened the gate and told me to have a good look around, I said why is it running, he said well bmw people usually like to see these running and up to temperature to make sure they don't overheat etc. I understand what he said but we could have got it hot on a test drive! (He said well we can let it cool down) which wouldn't have happened considering how late it was.

I look at the suspect nearside and it's had paint on the front wing, door bottoms, sill and rear wing. I assume due to rust these are prone too so it wasn't much of an issue as far as accident damage but it was a **** poor job, you could see parts where the paint had reacted, it was flat and the rest of the bodywork was scratched to kingdom come. I said to him this is nowhere near the quality you told me on the phone, his response was... "well it's 17 years old it's not going to be perfect", I held my breathe and carried on looking. The interior was fine but another problem he didn't tell me, airbag light on...again I know these are prone on these cars if someone kneels on a seat or moves the seat back and forward it can trigger it. Parking sensor button flashing so they weren't working. Little bits that I convinced myself were ok to sort.

Took it for a drive, it did drive very well, engine smooth couldn't hardly hear it, gearbox changed up and down, couldn't feel the gear changes at all, reversed up a hill fine. Mechanically...It was fine, it was just a shame I couldn't experience a true cold start. Hot starting wasn't an issue, fired right up. No creaks, rattles, knocks, really is a testament to these E39s how well built they were.

Overall just miffed at the paintwork but I was willing to see past that and convinced myself it was ok again as I'd travelled so far and didn't want to look a mug going all that way and getting shafted. (again, stupid, I am too nice).

So...went into the office and said look, the car wasn't to the standard I'd been lead to believe so said I'll drive it away for £250 less, he said no, no negotiations I told you that on the phone, I said no you didn't but YOU did tell me there were no paint issues. He said the cars the car and that's the price.

At this point, it was strange, I felt obliged to buy the car but I actually didn't want to deep down inside, so I said ok, lets sort the paperwork, the time was now 5pm.

He took out a wallet, had previous mots, book pack etc, he slid the V5 infront of me to fill in the new keeper bit... being distracted by the mots etc, I filled the logbook in and put my card on the table.

This is where it gets pretty interesting, he took the log book off me and said oh, btw this is an old style log book so you can't tax it online I said what on earth, why has it got an old style log book, he said we see it all the time with trade ins, I said these haven't been in existence since about 2011! At this point, I didn't want the car, this was the last straw but wanted to see where this would lead as something was all off about all this....SO..

He said but it's ok, pay the money and go down to the post office and do it there and it'll be fine. I said would someone run me down there now to get it sorted, he said well pay the money and you and your mate can drive down there, they shut at 5.30pm. So no they wouldn't run me down there and he demanded I pay first. This would have deffo made me run a mile if I hadn't already decided in my head it was over.

I said if I pay you the money, drive there and it's shut or they won't tax it, you won't be refunding my money and I'll be stuck here with a car I can't drive home.

He said we'll be here when you get back don't worry, then without a breath between words he says... "is this the card your paying on", I said "yes", he said "but it's a credit card, we don't take them, I told you that on the phone"(I wanted to pay on credit for protection basically but didn't say that to him)... I said "no you didn't, not at all did you say anything of the sort", he then says "we won't even take a deposit on a credit card", "well...I paid with it on credit card", he looks at the receipt, that shut him up and I think he could see I was getting more annoyed too, "it also says on your website that you can pay by credit card", he says "well since the new laws we've not accepted them as we can't pass on the charges" and with that he picked his mobile up and rings his 'boss', "got a guy here on the bmw, (voices), I know you don't want to sell the bmw but he's here now and wants to pay by credit card, (voices) ok ok I'll tell him that".. he says we can get around that by charging you a document processing fee...

I stood up, said just ****ing forget it, and walked out. I felt upset but relieved at the same time.

If the car had been as it was described, I'd have perhaps said look, get a new log book for it, I'll come back in a couple of weeks when it's come through to collect the car. It just wasn't though. Everything all added up to a complete **** show basically.

Of course refused to refund my deposit, so I'll ring the bank and see if I can get a charge back.

We make the long drive home, I drove my friends car with him there and back, I paid for the fuel and all food etc as any decent person would.

When I got home, for some reason I was paranoid with how dodgy it all seemed that they'd charge my card for car anyway and stitch me up as I'd filled in the logbook. Thankfully they hadn't but I decided to look up the company info as it's a LTD company.

The directors address....I thought I bloody recognise that, it was only the address that was the previous owner of the BMW!

So as you can see, seller dodgy, me being too lenient and car not as described. I asked all the questions and everything I asked he satisfied by being untruthful.

I'm now on the lookout for a good clean example at the right money. Teach myself a lesson about trying to grab a bargain. It's funny, friends have done this and all worked out...would be my luck I'm the first to get stung by it.
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Old 12-02-2018, 12:30 PM   #20
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Get onto your credit card company. See if they can offer any help with the refund. Tell them what’s happened and to stop any further transactions on the card ...

Sounds like you’ve had a lucky escape bud, not going down the route of told you so etc (as I hadn’t ), but I think the lesson learned - if it doesn’t feel right and you’re not sure, leave it...

Hope you get the deposit back, no further issues and do find a belter of a car
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