Thickness of wax layers?

FinstP · 24-07-2009, 02:28 AM

Does anyone know of any (scientific) measurements of the wax thickness put down in one or more applications? I have long suspected that the thickness is much less than one micron and am sorely tempted to make the measurements. I have access to equipment that can measure to less than one thousandth of a micron (a nanometre).
Of course it would be difficult to measure on a standard car panel so I will have to use something that is extremely smooth but too unlike a clear coat. I propose to use silicon wafers, which are the flattest, smoothest surfaces readily available. These always have a thin layer of oxide (silica in other words) on top, which we would usually measure as being 2-> 3 nm thick. Any objections to this, on the grounds of not providing a fair test, before I start?

NOTE (added 30th July) :- Results are shown in later threads

agpatel · 24-07-2009, 03:02 AM

It is around the sub-micron range from what I have read around and talking about.

Bero · 24-07-2009, 03:45 AM

Great idea, the real benifit of this would be to see how many layers of wax you can put down before there is no increase in thickness with the addition of more layers.

Then comparing the layering ability of solvent heavy waxes and less solvent heavy waxes etc etc.....i'm sure we would be able to dream up no end of tests!!

I'm already preparing stickers for all my LSP's so i can write on the 'optimal/maximum' number of layers.

akimel · 24-07-2009, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bero

Great idea, the real benifit of this would be to see how many layers of wax you can put down before there is no increase in thickness with the addition of more layers.

And after it has been determined how many layers of carnauba wax can be applied before there is no increase, then the test needs to be repeated for a synthetic sealant.

I am really looking forward to the results!

Al

Bigpikle · 24-07-2009, 08:37 AM

Go for it

nobody has ever managed to measure any film build from layers of wax, properly applied, from what I have read....

I'd like to see your results. My only concern would be whether you can apply wax and buff it properly on this wafer you describe? It would be great to see what actually happens, and please use more than 1 wax, as their chemistry is so different that I suspect some waxes will layer and some wont (or it will be an almost negligible film build).

Charley Farley · 24-07-2009, 09:28 AM

OOI - how would you calc depth? Paint reading first, then with a coat of wax, is any equipment capable of measuring accurately? What of two coats? Same surely applies, by whom and with what?

As it is applied in two ways (usually, unless I missed an alternative) by hand or applicator, whose hand, what size, how deep dibbing into CW?? Surely no such test would ever be worth the paper it was written on? IMO, and that is all it is, prepare the surface, end up with a coat of wax applied correctly, buffed, left or not, test to measure longevity. Then same again, two coats, and same test? Would ambient conditions be the same though, frequency of rain, road conditions??? Still not really conclusive is it?

A pro or highly experienced detailer could obtain result A on ABC car in ABC conditions, it does not mean to say I could come close unless I was able to duplicate the conditions therefore a 'hands-on' testing of such a product (IMO) is only ever likely to be slightly indicative, and a scientific test....? Well, again (IMO) about as much use as a one legged man in an ar5e kicking contest.

With respect.

FinstP · 24-07-2009, 11:45 AM

Can the wax layer be measured? Yes.

How? Well, rather than me take up a lot of space here - just have a look at "ellipsometry" on wikipedia. This can measure the thickness (and the optical properties) of layers that have thicknesses of less than 1 nanometre, up to several microns. I use this and other optical methods.

Is it worth doing - I think so, and my colleagues would certainly believe the results. The method of application can obviously be varied to leave behind a well-defined layer, but the point of this test would be to see how much wax is left when applied in the "normal" way by cloths. I think I can do this part of detailing as well as anybody else, having looked after two cars for more years than I care to mention.

Is a silicon wafer the best surface to coat? Well it's the flattest, cleanest, smoothest thing you are ever likely to see. The wax won't actually "see" silicon because a silicon surface immediately forms a thin oxide layer on exposure to air. This grows to around several nanometres and pretty much stops unless heated. So chemically the wax will be adhering to silica.

I can also try coating the silicon with clearcoat, that slightly complicates analysis, but we measure lacquers and other coatings all the time and it is possible.

PWOOD · 24-07-2009, 11:58 AM

sounds like you know what your talking about. Please let us know what you find

Bigpikle · 24-07-2009, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FinstP

Can the wax layer be measured? Yes.

How? Well, rather than me take up a lot of space here - just have a look at "ellipsometry" on wikipedia. This can measure the thickness (and the optical properties) of layers that have thicknesses of less than 1 nanometre, up to several microns. I use this and other optical methods.

Is it worth doing - I think so, and my colleagues would certainly believe the results. The method of application can obviously be varied to leave behind a well-defined layer, but the point of this test would be to see how much wax is left when applied in the "normal" way by cloths. I think I can do this part of detailing as well as anybody else, having looked after two cars for more years than I care to mention.

Is a silicon wafer the best surface to coat? Well it's the flattest, cleanest, smoothest thing you are ever likely to see. The wax won't actually "see" silicon because a silicon surface immediately forms a thin oxide layer on exposure to air. This grows to around several nanometres and pretty much stops unless heated. So chemically the wax will be adhering to silica.

I can also try coating the silicon with clearcoat, that slightly complicates analysis, but we measure lacquers and other coatings all the time and it is possible.

go for it and please document your process for the scientists here. I have always wondered by wax manufacturers have never published any findings on this topic? I know technology exists, so why have we never seen results? I suspect its because they wont be good (from a wax manufacturers point of view) and its in the interests of manufacturers to have us layer products and use more stuff

Please use some quality waxes and some stuff that is regarded as very solvent heavy eg Colli waxes, FK1000 etc. I'd also love to see a water based spray wax product tested to see how that compares to paste products.

I'm looking forward to seeing your results

robsonj · 24-07-2009, 12:11 PM

go for it mate , no doubt the waxmeister Dave kg will be very interested along with myself(not that i'm a scientist lol)

24-07-2009, 02:28 AM	#1
FinstP Sponge Jockey Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 62 Thanks: 4 Thanked 122 Times in 17 Posts	Thickness of wax layers? Does anyone know of any (scientific) measurements of the wax thickness put down in one or more applications? I have long suspected that the thickness is much less than one micron and am sorely tempted to make the measurements. I have access to equipment that can measure to less than one thousandth of a micron (a nanometre). Of course it would be difficult to measure on a standard car panel so I will have to use something that is extremely smooth but too unlike a clear coat. I propose to use silicon wafers, which are the flattest, smoothest surfaces readily available. These always have a thin layer of oxide (silica in other words) on top, which we would usually measure as being 2-> 3 nm thick. Any objections to this, on the grounds of not providing a fair test, before I start? NOTE (added 30th July) :- Results are shown in later threads Last edited by FinstP; 30-07-2009 at 10:12 PM. Reason: To note that there are results in subsequent threads

24-07-2009, 03:45 AM	#3
Bero OCD Sufferer (Obsessive Car Detailer) Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Aberdeen Posts: 2,273 Thanks: 1,741 Thanked 1,029 Times in 787 Posts	Great idea, the real benifit of this would be to see how many layers of wax you can put down before there is no increase in thickness with the addition of more layers. Then comparing the layering ability of solvent heavy waxes and less solvent heavy waxes etc etc.....i'm sure we would be able to dream up no end of tests!! I'm already preparing stickers for all my LSP's so i can write on the 'optimal/maximum' number of layers. Last edited by Bero; 24-07-2009 at 03:52 AM.

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24-07-2009, 03:02 AM	#2
agpatel Washmitt Meister Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Greensboro,NC: USA Posts: 290 Thanks: 51 Thanked 66 Times in 54 Posts	It is around the sub-micron range from what I have read around and talking about.

24-07-2009, 08:37 AM	#5
Bigpikle Distinguished Detailer Join Date: May 2007 Location: Riding my bike somewhere... Posts: 14,846 Thanks: 920 Thanked 2,194 Times in 1,476 Posts	Go for it nobody has ever managed to measure any film build from layers of wax, properly applied, from what I have read.... I'd like to see your results. My only concern would be whether you can apply wax and buff it properly on this wafer you describe? It would be great to see what actually happens, and please use more than 1 wax, as their chemistry is so different that I suspect some waxes will layer and some wont (or it will be an almost negligible film build).

24-07-2009, 09:28 AM	#6
Charley Farley PC Perfectionist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Zummerset Posts: 437 Thanks: 114 Thanked 116 Times in 88 Posts	OOI - how would you calc depth? Paint reading first, then with a coat of wax, is any equipment capable of measuring accurately? What of two coats? Same surely applies, by whom and with what? As it is applied in two ways (usually, unless I missed an alternative) by hand or applicator, whose hand, what size, how deep dibbing into CW?? Surely no such test would ever be worth the paper it was written on? IMO, and that is all it is, prepare the surface, end up with a coat of wax applied correctly, buffed, left or not, test to measure longevity. Then same again, two coats, and same test? Would ambient conditions be the same though, frequency of rain, road conditions??? Still not really conclusive is it? A pro or highly experienced detailer could obtain result A on ABC car in ABC conditions, it does not mean to say I could come close unless I was able to duplicate the conditions therefore a 'hands-on' testing of such a product (IMO) is only ever likely to be slightly indicative, and a scientific test....? Well, again (IMO) about as much use as a one legged man in an ar5e kicking contest. With respect.

24-07-2009, 11:45 AM	#7
FinstP Sponge Jockey Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 62 Thanks: 4 Thanked 122 Times in 17 Posts	Can the wax layer be measured? Yes. How? Well, rather than me take up a lot of space here - just have a look at "ellipsometry" on wikipedia. This can measure the thickness (and the optical properties) of layers that have thicknesses of less than 1 nanometre, up to several microns. I use this and other optical methods. Is it worth doing - I think so, and my colleagues would certainly believe the results. The method of application can obviously be varied to leave behind a well-defined layer, but the point of this test would be to see how much wax is left when applied in the "normal" way by cloths. I think I can do this part of detailing as well as anybody else, having looked after two cars for more years than I care to mention. Is a silicon wafer the best surface to coat? Well it's the flattest, cleanest, smoothest thing you are ever likely to see. The wax won't actually "see" silicon because a silicon surface immediately forms a thin oxide layer on exposure to air. This grows to around several nanometres and pretty much stops unless heated. So chemically the wax will be adhering to silica. I can also try coating the silicon with clearcoat, that slightly complicates analysis, but we measure lacquers and other coatings all the time and it is possible.

24-07-2009, 11:58 AM	#8
PWOOD OCD Sufferer (Obsessive Car Detailer) Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,432 Thanks: 166 Thanked 116 Times in 102 Posts	sounds like you know what your talking about. Please let us know what you find

24-07-2009, 12:11 PM	#10
robsonj OCD Sufferer (Obsessive Car Detailer) Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: The 'toon Posts: 1,280 Thanks: 108 Thanked 75 Times in 75 Posts	go for it mate , no doubt the waxmeister Dave kg will be very interested along with myself(not that i'm a scientist lol)

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