Detailing World  

Go Back   Detailing World > Detailing Products > Waxes, Sealants & Paint Protection
DW Home Forum Home Merchandise Store Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Waxes, Sealants & Paint Protection Sponsored by DODO JUICE Light Fantastic , Banana Armour, Orange Crush, Rainforest Rub, Purple Haze - www.dodojuice.com

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 24-07-2009, 02:28 AM   #1
FinstP
Sponge Jockey
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 62
Thanks: 4
Thanked 127 Times in 17 Posts
Thickness of wax layers?

Does anyone know of any (scientific) measurements of the wax thickness put down in one or more applications? I have long suspected that the thickness is much less than one micron and am sorely tempted to make the measurements. I have access to equipment that can measure to less than one thousandth of a micron (a nanometre).
Of course it would be difficult to measure on a standard car panel so I will have to use something that is extremely smooth but too unlike a clear coat. I propose to use silicon wafers, which are the flattest, smoothest surfaces readily available. These always have a thin layer of oxide (silica in other words) on top, which we would usually measure as being 2-> 3 nm thick. Any objections to this, on the grounds of not providing a fair test, before I start?


NOTE (added 30th July) :- Results are shown in later threads

Last edited by FinstP; 30-07-2009 at 10:12 PM. Reason: To note that there are results in subsequent threads
FinstP is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to FinstP For This Useful Post:
ant_s (17-08-2009), Bero (26-07-2009), chillly (25-07-2009), Jules02 (16-05-2011), qwertyuiop (02-08-2009)
Old 24-07-2009, 03:02 AM   #2
agpatel
Washmitt Meister
 
agpatel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Greensboro,NC: USA
Posts: 290
Thanks: 51
Thanked 66 Times in 54 Posts
It is around the sub-micron range from what I have read around and talking about.
agpatel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2009, 03:45 AM   #3
Bero
OCD Sufferer (Obsessive Car Detailer)
 
Bero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 2,416
Thanks: 1,888
Thanked 1,142 Times in 864 Posts
Great idea, the real benifit of this would be to see how many layers of wax you can put down before there is no increase in thickness with the addition of more layers.

Then comparing the layering ability of solvent heavy waxes and less solvent heavy waxes etc etc.....i'm sure we would be able to dream up no end of tests!!

I'm already preparing stickers for all my LSP's so i can write on the 'optimal/maximum' number of layers.

Last edited by Bero; 24-07-2009 at 03:52 AM.
Bero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2009, 04:04 AM   #4
akimel
PC Perfectionist
 
akimel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 302
Thanks: 61
Thanked 61 Times in 36 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bero View Post
Great idea, the real benifit of this would be to see how many layers of wax you can put down before there is no increase in thickness with the addition of more layers.
And after it has been determined how many layers of carnauba wax can be applied before there is no increase, then the test needs to be repeated for a synthetic sealant.

I am really looking forward to the results!

Al
akimel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2009, 08:37 AM   #5
Bigpikle
Distinguished Detailer
 
Bigpikle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Riding my bike somewhere...
Posts: 14,995
Thanks: 959
Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,536 Posts
Go for it

nobody has ever managed to measure any film build from layers of wax, properly applied, from what I have read....

I'd like to see your results. My only concern would be whether you can apply wax and buff it properly on this wafer you describe? It would be great to see what actually happens, and please use more than 1 wax, as their chemistry is so different that I suspect some waxes will layer and some wont (or it will be an almost negligible film build).
Bigpikle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2009, 09:28 AM   #6
Charley Farley
PC Perfectionist
 
Charley Farley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Zummerset
Posts: 437
Thanks: 114
Thanked 116 Times in 88 Posts
OOI - how would you calc depth? Paint reading first, then with a coat of wax, is any equipment capable of measuring accurately? What of two coats? Same surely applies, by whom and with what?

As it is applied in two ways (usually, unless I missed an alternative) by hand or applicator, whose hand, what size, how deep dibbing into CW?? Surely no such test would ever be worth the paper it was written on? IMO, and that is all it is, prepare the surface, end up with a coat of wax applied correctly, buffed, left or not, test to measure longevity. Then same again, two coats, and same test? Would ambient conditions be the same though, frequency of rain, road conditions??? Still not really conclusive is it?

A pro or highly experienced detailer could obtain result A on ABC car in ABC conditions, it does not mean to say I could come close unless I was able to duplicate the conditions therefore a 'hands-on' testing of such a product (IMO) is only ever likely to be slightly indicative, and a scientific test....? Well, again (IMO) about as much use as a one legged man in an ar5e kicking contest.

With respect.
Charley Farley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2009, 11:45 AM   #7
FinstP
Sponge Jockey
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 62
Thanks: 4
Thanked 127 Times in 17 Posts
Can the wax layer be measured? Yes.

How? Well, rather than me take up a lot of space here - just have a look at "ellipsometry" on wikipedia. This can measure the thickness (and the optical properties) of layers that have thicknesses of less than 1 nanometre, up to several microns. I use this and other optical methods.

Is it worth doing - I think so, and my colleagues would certainly believe the results. The method of application can obviously be varied to leave behind a well-defined layer, but the point of this test would be to see how much wax is left when applied in the "normal" way by cloths. I think I can do this part of detailing as well as anybody else, having looked after two cars for more years than I care to mention.

Is a silicon wafer the best surface to coat? Well it's the flattest, cleanest, smoothest thing you are ever likely to see. The wax won't actually "see" silicon because a silicon surface immediately forms a thin oxide layer on exposure to air. This grows to around several nanometres and pretty much stops unless heated. So chemically the wax will be adhering to silica.

I can also try coating the silicon with clearcoat, that slightly complicates analysis, but we measure lacquers and other coatings all the time and it is possible.
FinstP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2009, 11:58 AM   #8
PWOOD
OCD Sufferer (Obsessive Car Detailer)
 
PWOOD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,532
Thanks: 182
Thanked 141 Times in 122 Posts
sounds like you know what your talking about. Please let us know what you find
PWOOD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2009, 12:04 PM   #9
Bigpikle
Distinguished Detailer
 
Bigpikle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Riding my bike somewhere...
Posts: 14,995
Thanks: 959
Thanked 2,281 Times in 1,536 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by FinstP View Post
Can the wax layer be measured? Yes.

How? Well, rather than me take up a lot of space here - just have a look at "ellipsometry" on wikipedia. This can measure the thickness (and the optical properties) of layers that have thicknesses of less than 1 nanometre, up to several microns. I use this and other optical methods.

Is it worth doing - I think so, and my colleagues would certainly believe the results. The method of application can obviously be varied to leave behind a well-defined layer, but the point of this test would be to see how much wax is left when applied in the "normal" way by cloths. I think I can do this part of detailing as well as anybody else, having looked after two cars for more years than I care to mention.

Is a silicon wafer the best surface to coat? Well it's the flattest, cleanest, smoothest thing you are ever likely to see. The wax won't actually "see" silicon because a silicon surface immediately forms a thin oxide layer on exposure to air. This grows to around several nanometres and pretty much stops unless heated. So chemically the wax will be adhering to silica.

I can also try coating the silicon with clearcoat, that slightly complicates analysis, but we measure lacquers and other coatings all the time and it is possible.
go for it and please document your process for the scientists here. I have always wondered by wax manufacturers have never published any findings on this topic? I know technology exists, so why have we never seen results? I suspect its because they wont be good (from a wax manufacturers point of view) and its in the interests of manufacturers to have us layer products and use more stuff

Please use some quality waxes and some stuff that is regarded as very solvent heavy eg Colli waxes, FK1000 etc. I'd also love to see a water based spray wax product tested to see how that compares to paste products.

I'm looking forward to seeing your results
Bigpikle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2009, 12:11 PM   #10
robsonj
OCD Sufferer (Obsessive Car Detailer)
 
robsonj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: The 'toon
Posts: 1,281
Thanks: 108
Thanked 75 Times in 75 Posts
go for it mate , no doubt the waxmeister Dave kg will be very interested along with myself(not that i'm a scientist lol)
robsonj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:03 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
DTO Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

vB.Sponsors
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
DTO Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.

vB.Sponsors