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Eco Friendly Detailing Talk About all your Eco Products here - Waterless wash / Steam cleaning etc

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Old 02-04-2019, 01:50 AM   #11
tosh
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Sonax have a video where they
- wash the car with shampoo and soap
- couple of pulls of Spray and Seal on top of the soap
- rinse off the panel (or whole car)

It really works, saves water, saves time, gives the whole car a quick sealant top up in about 35ml of product, way easier to dry as well

If you spray once inside the door shuts before your rinse, you’ll seal those hidden bits of the car as well.


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Old 02-04-2019, 07:09 AM   #12
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I use a combination of hose pipe and water butt in winter and waterless where I can though the summer. I tried polar blast the other day and it saved a load of time and didn’t use anymore water as I substituted the water used with a pre wash as the car didn’t need it.
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Old 02-04-2019, 02:40 PM   #13
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I use spray on, rinse off products on my wheels.. Saves my back use wax and detail sprays on the body

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Old 03-04-2019, 07:29 PM   #14
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I've always thought they are a bit of a nightmare - wasteful on so many levels.

Most are essentially large bottles of water, so all the transport and shipping costs simply for moving water around and then there is all the extra rinsing to use them - rinse the car, then rinse again, and of course people go WAY over the top rinsing the product off to avoid marks. I bet more water is used removing these products than in all stages of the wash itself.

Then there is the run-off heading into the drains (and therefore local streams and rivers). Drains are meant for rain water run-off so now we're chucking all this si based stuff down there as well.

I see the convenience factor but at what cost?
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Old 03-04-2019, 07:37 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigpikle View Post
I've always thought they are a bit of a nightmare - wasteful on so many levels.

Most are essentially large bottles of water, so all the transport and shipping costs simply for moving water around and then there is all the extra rinsing to use them - rinse the car, then rinse again, and of course people go WAY over the top rinsing the product off to avoid marks. I bet more water is used removing these products than in all stages of the wash itself.

Then there is the run-off heading into the drains (and therefore local streams and rivers). Drains are meant for rain water run-off so now we're chucking all this si based stuff down there as well.

I see the convenience factor but at what cost?
Good points raised

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Old 03-04-2019, 09:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy from Sandy View Post
So to re-state are these the products that should be developed or should we be looking to try and be more environmentally friendly?
Good subject.

Firstly, I laud anyone who questions the impact their decisions have on the greater world around them.

As detailers, we represent a tiny fraction of the population, and as such our actions are tiny compared to the amount of waste or pollution created by larger entities... A single golf course will consume hundreds of thousands or millions of gallons of water in the course of a month just to maintain its greens (with much more chemical runoff from what they use to treat them.). With something like this in mind, anything we do as individuals amongst that tiny minority to be more responsible about our consumption is like switching from incandescent to LED in your keychain flashlight... It doesn't make it less important for us as individuals to be smart about what we do, but it does give perspective to the issue.

On a whole, as detailers, I feel there are other things we do that probably contribute more to pollution or waste than this... Being consumers of items with packaging waste, consumption of non-durable goods, high transport carbon footprints (For most of us, our favorite products are shipped from all over the world; few are locally made.), and also the washing of microfibers (It is suspected the laundering of man-made materials is a possible source of microplastics in water.) I suspect are far greater concerns than spray & rinse sealants...

Bigpikle below has hit upon most of the salient points below for the spray and rinse sealant concern, so I will respond with my thoughts to these directly...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigpikle View Post

(A) - "Most are essentially large bottles of water, so all the transport and shipping costs simply for moving water around..."

(B) - "...and then there is all the extra rinsing to use them - rinse the car, then rinse again..."

(C) - "...and of course people go WAY over the top rinsing the product off to avoid marks."

(D) - "I bet more water is used removing these products than in all stages of the wash itself."

(E) - "Then there is the run-off heading into the drains (and therefore local streams and rivers). Drains are meant for rain water run-off so now we're chucking all this si based stuff down there as well."

(F) - "I see the convenience factor but at what cost?"
(A) - This is a good point, and one that can be leveled at so many non-concentrated detailing products. However, some spray & rinse products are sold as concentrates (I use Hydro2, myself; 5:1 concentrate.), so the consumer can make the decision in this case to improve upon this situation.

(B) - It adds precisely one extra rinse to the wash process, yes.

(C) - This is a valid point... However, again one that can be leveled at 2BM washing in general. There are so many little factors that can cause an increase in water consumption over that absolute minimum... Including needing to re-rinse repeatedly on a hot day to avoid water spotting, using shampoos that might not rinse as freely as some others, not turning off the hosepipe at the other end quickly when open-hose flooding the car to help make drying easier, or just spraying the car to observe the water beading performance of the latest LSP you are testing... All of which consume far more than spray & rinse.

(D) - Have you used spray & rinse products before, and done so regularly enough to learn how much water is needed to rinse them? Your supposition that it is greater than any other stage of the wash is a little exaggerated, as in my experience the rinsing stage with such products consumes the least of all the other rinsing stages in a 2BM wash...

I estimate my own consumption to be (Assuming the vehicle does not need to be re-wetted during the wash, as one frequently needs to do in summer.) no more than 20% additional with Hydro2 (Which you can actually rinse successfully with a pressure sprayer, if it has been applied correctly and sparingly.) when using a hosepipe in addition to the two previous rinse stages.

The trick is partly in applying them correctly. You use very little product per panel, work it in with a wet microfiber or sponge to distribute and help it bond, and then rinse off panel by panel. This uses the least product, has the least chance of leaving residue, aids in bonding durability, and also makes it substantially easier to rinse... Over applying these products can result in massively increased water consumption, and product waste. The only time I spray them on directly is on small, intricate things, like wheels.

(E) - This is a valid concern, but again, the excess SiO2 runoff from such products should be minimal (And how much of it will reach a drain before trying to adhere itself to the most convenient hard surface is again something I would question.), and the number of people using them to the best of my knowledge are few. If large companies start using thousands of gallons of these products, and using them in a wasteful fashion without correctly capturing and treating their waste water, then that's a more genuine concern... Otherwise, the at-home detailers, and small detailing businesses are using them in low volume, and can also continue to do more to use them more responsibly.

(F) - There is a huge convenience factor... Especially when we can conveniently add protection to our cars which is durable (Over poor prep, Hydro2 lasts me about a month. Over good prep, it can last substantially longer... At least three, on a regularly washed vehicle, though on ones which are washed infrequently I have seen much longer.), and can be applied to inconvenient parts (Like wheels.) with very little additional effort...

The cost I have estimated to be about an extra ~12-24 gallons of water per vehicle in rinse water. Plus the consumption of buying another detailing product... As a mostly DIY detailer these days, I use Hydro2 about 6-12 times a year at most (Most of the time on wheels only, which I spend only a few gallons rinsing. Without these products, I probably wouldn't have the time to properly seal my wheels inside and out most of the time. I can tell you for certain that using reactive wheel cleaners every week, versus being able to clean them with either shampoo or ONR, is a far bigger waste of water, and a rather more worrying source of runoff.).

For me, the number of products I have bought which I did not strictly need (Many shipped by plane or cargo ship from all over the world.), and subsequently thrown out due to not having satisfactory performance (Or not using them up before they went off.), has been a far greater waste and harm to the environment than using these particular products. That's something that so many of us as detailers are guilty of, and probably our biggest negative impact... However, compared to the general population (Who often do the same thing in their own non-detailing fields of interest.), let alone large businesses, we are a drop in the bucket. We can improve, and be less wasteful in many different ways... But it is always valuable to keep a greater perspective in mind, of how an individual action compares to the whole. Every little bit helps, but some improvements we can make have a bigger difference than others... It just depends on whether you want to take a hardline stance on the little things, or the big things, and how much time and energy you have to spend on it.

These are just my thoughts on the subject... I respect and appreciate the opinions of others on this matter. When it comes to responsibility over our actions, and making the best decisions, we all do the best we can.

- Steampunk
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Old 03-04-2019, 10:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tosh View Post
Sonax have a video where they
- wash the car with shampoo and soap
- couple of pulls of Spray and Seal on top of the soap
- rinse off the panel (or whole car)

It really works, saves water, saves time, gives the whole car a quick sealant top up in about 35ml of product, way easier to dry as well

If you spray once inside the door shuts before your rinse, you’ll seal those hidden bits of the car as well.


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Oh that's worth knowing - might try this route with DetailedOnline Nano sealant I have next time I use it to see what the outcome is
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Old 04-04-2019, 12:28 AM   #18
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I've used Auto Allure - cant remember the name of it.
Ive also used Auto Finesse - again, cant remember the name!

The reason i probably dont remember the names is because they were pretty useless in my opinion.

I used a hell of a lot of product, for not exactly amazing results. As mentioned above i think i emptied to local water source to rinse it off - and - still ended up with 'spotting'!

I get a much better finish using a QD as a drying aid
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Old 04-04-2019, 01:21 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigpikle View Post
Most are essentially large bottles of water, so all the transport and shipping costs simply for moving water around and then there is all the extra rinsing to use them - rinse the car, then rinse again, and of course people go WAY over the top rinsing the product off to avoid marks. I bet more water is used removing these products than in all stages of the wash itself.
Agree on this point - Carpro started selling Hydro2 in very small bottles that you had to dilute yourself - the product took off when it started selling in pre-diluted form and everyone else followed suit. Carpro and Gyeon still sell their concentrate, but I bet they don't sell anywhere near as many as the pre-diluted versions.

Regarding run-off and drains - isn't that already covered by some sort of environmental assessment of these types of products? That they don't harm aquatic and other life? I've done some work for the Environmental Agency, but never came across them evaluating these types of products (detergents and cleaning products) - mainly agricultural and building materials and chemicals.
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Old 04-04-2019, 10:18 AM   #20
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When I am washing my car I have no idea how much water I am using and I am not thinking environment when doing it. I am as wasteful as the next guy in that respect so not tree hugging or beating a drum here.

In the UK there is 38,000,000 registered vehicles. I wonder how many get washed and of those how many washed regularly?

Let's go with 10% and then use steampunk's number of washes.

3,800,000 x 9 x 18 = 615,600,000 gallons of water per year on average. If I use the maximum figures it is 3,800,000 x 12 x 24 = 1,094,400,000 gallons of water.

I think washing a car actually has quite a large impact on the amount of water used especially if that is every rinse or wet down stage and this is only for the UK.

As an aside to that I just looked up waste due to leaks and for the latest figure I could find 681,904,670 gallons of water per day is lost due to leaking pipes in the system. So what we might use in a year water companies manage to lose by leaks in a every single day.

Last edited by Andy from Sandy; 04-04-2019 at 10:39 AM.
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